tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post3589767015162173551..comments2023-10-23T09:23:22.051-04:00Comments on Your Schools: The K-8 debate continuesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger79125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-42024218814632813922012-07-02T10:00:42.775-04:002012-07-02T10:00:42.775-04:00Those who have discussed the teaching of math have...Those who have discussed the teaching of math have hit on a major reason why we have a problem in this area in the United States. When the push for "new math" came about, it assumed all children were taught how to add, multiply, subtract and divide before they entered school. Of course, a lot of them did 30-40 years ago when playtime included older siblings simulating "school" and teaching their younger ones what they were learning in at the time.<br /><br />Without a strong foundation, it is difficult to take the critical leaps in thinking that problem solving requires. So I submit to you that if one doesn't memorize the multiplication tables and have continuous (rote) practice in basic math skills at the earliest age possible, that person will never do well in math. You must be able to determine if the answers on that calculator are logical if the leap to higher levels can take place with a degree confidence and lowered anxiety.<br /><br />Rote learning of the basics is why older US generations are better in math than younger ones. We must get back to teaching phonics in order to help students gain enough confidence to attempt to read aloud. Reading skills will then improve as students hear themselves succeed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-78730588101776851232012-07-01T14:41:34.115-04:002012-07-01T14:41:34.115-04:004:53
Interesting. I would think how we teach math ...4:53<br />Interesting. I would think how we teach math is as important as what we teach and when. This gets into text books and teacher training. NC is adopting the National Srandard Course Cirriculum so it will be interesting to see how this impacts math education. The other problem is supply and demand. Someone with a B.S. in math has higher salary options outside of the U.S. teaching profession. I yanked my oldest son out of a 7th grade "gifted" one year Algebra 1 class because he wasn't retaining the material. As it turned out, kids who took<br />Algebra 1 over a two year period scored just as well on the math section of the SAT and ACT as "gifted" kids taking the course over a one year period. Gets back to learning material in a repetitive and, perhaps, at a slower pace. Learning to play the piano or learning ballet is all about rote repetition. One highly repetitive thing builds to the next skill. And then you go back to your basic C scale or plies in first position at the barre and repeat the same thing over and over again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-85187316269161751262012-06-30T17:10:24.429-04:002012-06-30T17:10:24.429-04:00I don't know why schools would listen to what ...I don't know why schools would listen to what anyone in the NAACP says.<br /><br />It's not like the NAACP has any experience teaching children or running a school that I know of.<br /><br />I'd like to see them do it, though, just to see if they can walk their talk.<br /><br />But I think they'd be miserable failures.<br /><br />Of course, the more blacks fail, the more they "need" the NAACP, though, so that would still be a win for them.<br /><br />Great gig if you can get it...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-59944692550759631432012-06-30T16:53:01.688-04:002012-06-30T16:53:01.688-04:00I'm not sure about how Finland teaches math, b...I'm not sure about how Finland teaches math, but I know the Chinese are a good bit ahead of us.<br /><br />The PISA tests, for example, show that even the poorest Chinese in the rural provinces are a full year ahead of our students who attend good public or private schools.<br /><br />That's sad.<br /><br />I have a BS in math, so it is one of my pet peeves to see how we neglect math in the US.<br /><br />Since my wife is from China we try to teach our children with the Chinese system in mind, just in case we ever want to send our kids to China for school.<br /><br />As a result, my first grade son is able to do 3-digit multiplication without much trouble. Stuff like 357x156 doesn't phase him at all.<br /><br />I asked the schools when they would get to that and they said probably the third or fourth grade.<br /><br />This is totally unnecessary since it is easy to teach these rote methods to children at a much earlier age. <br /><br />There is no real reason to delay it since children have the ability at that age for these things.<br /><br />Later, when their reasoning skills develop, is the time to focus on problem solving skills.<br /><br />The first grade math material I've seen in the US is laughable at best.<br /><br />Of course, my son can still do it, but the classwork bores him silly.<br /><br />And he can be really silly at times...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-19893324441883111482012-06-29T20:22:37.350-04:002012-06-29T20:22:37.350-04:00Oops.
I miss picking up the latest edition of t...Oops. <br /><br />I miss picking up the latest edition of the Rhino Times. Math addition, edition. Did I mention my childhood journey into the "Whole Language" movement?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-366771800264972712012-06-29T20:16:01.815-04:002012-06-29T20:16:01.815-04:00cont...
Don't get me going on the Peason'...cont...<br /><br />Don't get me going on the Peason's educational book company that has a monopoly on K-12 and college level text books not to mention this company's profit making hand in the area of standardized testing. Don't EVEN get me going.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-22616951110143493592012-06-29T20:11:32.517-04:002012-06-29T20:11:32.517-04:00"Poverty Pimp"? That's a new one. ..."Poverty Pimp"? That's a new one. Why do I feel like I'm debating the defunct Rhino Times? Although, I really miss walking into the Teeter and picking up the latest addition. <br /><br />Speaking of educational buzzwords...<br /><br />Can the anonymous person who loves the phrase "smoke and mirrors" please come up with something more interesting. <br /><br />OK. I'm a fine arts teacher NOT a math teacher. However, I believe math books in places like Finland are different than they are here. Yes, students are covering the same material but at different paces. My understanding is that students in some countries use math books that cover a limited amount of material over the course of a year. In the United States, a typical math book covers a lot of material over the course of a year. Put simply, students in countries that outscore the U.S. in math cover less material in a year. In other words, students don't progress to a new math concept until they've learned a previous math skill really, really well. This repetitive "rote" approach to learning isn't that different than learning to play the piano. This was the problem with "New Math" which, back in my day, was supposedly going to revolutionize math education. Educational "experts" decided math should be fun and that the old ways of teaching math were outdated. And look where we are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-8721451250938701622012-06-29T20:02:23.390-04:002012-06-29T20:02:23.390-04:00Don't expect Ericka E-S to look to resolve any...Don't expect Ericka E-S to look to resolve any of those other causes. Gullible US politicians have been too successful blaming all the problems on NAACP visions of what causes poor school performance. We continue to throw $ at irrelevant causes, and the ones supposedly "helped" continue to suffer.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-13315565775382653222012-06-29T19:45:02.906-04:002012-06-29T19:45:02.906-04:00For those who are still afraid to look at foreign ...For those who are still afraid to look at foreign success...<br /><br />Here's an excerpt from “What the U.S. Can Learn from the World’s Most Successful Education Reform Efforts” <br /><br /><br />Dr. Paine remembers, “Because they do so exceptionally well in math, I asked one math teacher who was responsible for creating the curriculum in Singapore. She replied that it was very similar to one used in the U.S. – the curriculum promoted by our own National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. “‘We use the same instructional theories for math that you do in the States,’ she told me.<br /><br />“‘So then why,’ I asked her, ‘do your students perform so much better than ours if we’re using the same theories?’” <br /><br />She replied: “We actually apply them.”Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-57940632826860968352012-06-29T19:25:24.374-04:002012-06-29T19:25:24.374-04:00I know it's hard to accept when one of our fav...I know it's hard to accept when one of our favorite myths has been shattered, but we need to be open to the fact that MANY other countries have broken through the malaise in their education systems to produce much better results.<br /><br />Even among their poor students.<br /><br />Too many people are probably making a living off the poverty pimp mentality that seems to pervade our culture and keeps us from looking at where others have overcome the problems we claim to want to solve.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-34114589644908834182012-06-29T19:21:17.549-04:002012-06-29T19:21:17.549-04:00There is plenty of information showing that there ...There is plenty of information showing that there are exceptions to the "poverty=poor performance" in education claims.<br /><br />Again, the OECD (thru PISA) has documented this and even developed the term "resilience" to describe it.<br /><br />Articles about it are all over the place.<br /><br />Since it is such a big problem in the US, it just might be worthwhile for us to look at the countries which have succeeded in reducing the effect.<br /><br />We would call that "closing the gap" and often claim it as a priority, only no one wants to look at how others have done this outside the US for some oddball reason.<br /><br />Maybe it's just the "Not Invented Here" arrogance of many in the US that stops us from looking abroad.<br /><br />I don't see what the problem could possibly be with looking at what works in other countries unless someone is afraid their particular ox or special interest group will get gored.<br /><br />There's at least one summary out there I ran into that had a few suggestions.<br /><br />Schleicher, an official at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, wrote, “What the U.S. Can Learn from the World’s Most Successful Education Reform Efforts,” with Steven L. Paine, a CTB/McGraw-Hill vice president and a former West Virginia schools superintendent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-77690586885841838932012-06-29T15:55:50.444-04:002012-06-29T15:55:50.444-04:00I believe students in Canada attend school until g...I believe students in Canada attend school until grade 13. I don't know at what age Canadian students start school. Maybe a grade 11-13 model is the way to go?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-77870993007446814792012-06-29T15:53:13.345-04:002012-06-29T15:53:13.345-04:00Now, one could argue that restricting the number o...Now, one could argue that restricting the number of U.S. students who can attend college is a better way to run things which is a practice (or model) in many other countries. Don't pass a college state test by 8th grade, go directly to beauty school. This practice would seem to defy our cultural belief as Americans but if we're really trying to be more like China, maybe we should give it a shot? In this way, a K-8 model makes perfect sense. Educate everyone up until 8th grade and then separate the best from the rest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-53374346505015336072012-06-29T15:40:08.400-04:002012-06-29T15:40:08.400-04:00I agree that our old solutions aren't getting ...I agree that our old solutions aren't getting the job done. From a global standpoint, we are not the boss of everyone anymore. Although, a huge and growing number of foreign students still come to the United States to attend college. Students who can't attend college in China because they don't meet the criteria to do so come here. A large number of students from India come to the United States to receive advanced degrees as well as a host of other countries. So, it appears we're still doing something right in the realms of higher education. <br /><br />However, I don't agree that poverty isn't a driving force that greatly influences academic achievement - not just in the United States but all over the world. Extensive research is clear that students who are poor generally don't perform as well academically as their higher income counterparts. There is also a strong relationship between parent education and student achievement. I don't know how anyone can refute this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-3437061894204542692012-06-29T14:20:49.206-04:002012-06-29T14:20:49.206-04:00Now as for what these "other" countries ...Now as for what these "other" countries are doing that we aren't, THAT is what I suggest we look into for solutions.<br /><br />Because the tired old solutions we've been using are not working.<br /><br />The fact that these other countries have figured out how to solve their education problems (and, yes, Finland had those, too) just means that they will be more competetive with us in the future, leaving us with less and less.<br /><br />Anyway, that's what will happen, and most likely is even happening now, whether we like it or not.<br /><br />Because we no longer run the world.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-2816566206281632522012-06-29T14:13:05.331-04:002012-06-29T14:13:05.331-04:00Canada also beats us in PISA tests.
So it's n...Canada also beats us in PISA tests.<br /><br />So it's not just "homogeneous" nations.<br /><br />Also, China is not as homogeneous as many might believe.<br /><br />And neither is Singapore.<br /><br />But keep making excuses because we are behind a LOT of countries, even though we spend much more money per student.<br /><br />They must be doing something right that we aren't.<br /><br />And our old solutions don't seem to be getting the job done.<br /><br />And isn't that the whole problem?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-27804355781194880452012-06-29T12:29:01.405-04:002012-06-29T12:29:01.405-04:00Or, we can put all the white kids in one school, a...Or, we can put all the white kids in one school, all the black kids in a different school, all the Asians in their own school, and all the illegal Spanish speaking kids in a privately established special school because this is the successful educational model they use in South Korea. <br /><br />Yep. This oughta' work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-34688841705742781562012-06-29T12:07:56.647-04:002012-06-29T12:07:56.647-04:00I suppose we could try to make the United States m...I suppose we could try to make the United States more "ethnically homogeneous"? Seems to work for the educational systems in China, Finland and South Korea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-15620889244729363312012-06-29T12:04:29.442-04:002012-06-29T12:04:29.442-04:00Cut and paste: South Korea.
South Korea is one of...Cut and paste: South Korea.<br /><br />South Korea is one of the most ethnically homogeneous countries in the world, and it is difficult for outsiders to be fully accepted. Legal protections for the rights of minority populations are often weak. The large population of workers from Southeast Asia, over half of whom are estimated to be in the country illegally, face considerable discrimination both in and out of the workplace. Other significant immigrant groups affected by discrimination include Mongolians, Nigerians and Chinese. This has led to the privately funded establishment of a school specifically targeted at children with an immigrated parent, with English and Korean as its main languages. When Hines Ward, who is of mixed Korean and African American heritage, earned MVP honors in Super Bowl XL, it sparked a debate in Korean society about the treatment mixed children receive.<br /><br />So, are you suggesting the U.S. should be emulating South Korea?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-13082229752685721842012-06-29T12:04:00.088-04:002012-06-29T12:04:00.088-04:00Also, in addition to South Korea, you have China w...Also, in addition to South Korea, you have China where poor students do well on the PISA tests (are "resilient").<br /><br />So there is certainly more than poverty at work in educational success, but we don't want to even think about that.<br /><br />See "China: the world's cleverest country?" on BBC's website.<br /><br />From that article:<br /><br />There were also major cultural differences when teenagers were asked about why people succeeded at school.<br /><br />"North Americans tell you typically it's all luck. 'I'm born talented in mathematics, or I'm born less talented so I'll study something else.'<br /><br />"In Europe, it's all about social heritage: 'My father was a plumber so I'm going to be a plumber'. <br /><br />"In China, more than nine out of 10 children tell you: 'It depends on the effort I invest and I can succeed if I study hard.'<br /><br />"They take on responsibility. They can overcome obstacles and say 'I'm the owner of my own success', rather than blaming it on the system."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-86257058974087249672012-06-29T11:51:50.098-04:002012-06-29T11:51:50.098-04:00cont..
Ah, so there are "other factors"...cont..<br /><br />Ah, so there are "other factors" that affect student achievement that can't be measured on a standardized test? Really?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-71247784311719517472012-06-29T11:46:18.342-04:002012-06-29T11:46:18.342-04:00Well yes. You are correct. There is a difference...Well yes. You are correct. There is a difference between correlation and cause and effect. <br /><br />SO, what IS South Korea doing that we aren't doing right? Finland performs fabulously too but the U.S. isn't Finland.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-54723023609381044432012-06-29T11:40:36.702-04:002012-06-29T11:40:36.702-04:00Anon 9:03
I've always wondered why no one se...Anon 9:03 <br /><br />I've always wondered why no one seems to be aware of the chicken/egg problem of poverty and poor school performance.<br /><br />It's not like poverty and educational achievement aren't correlated in our society.<br /><br />But being correlated doesn't mean that one CAUSES the other.<br /><br />There could be a third or fourth factor behind both (family, culture, attitudes, etc.) that isn't even being measured.<br /><br />And if we don't measure those other factors, we'll never consider them.<br /><br />All they really have is FRL. basic demographics, and some test scores.<br /><br />So, of course, they're going to use one of them as a "cause" for the other.<br /><br />So, they pick poverty because it is the easiest problem to "solve". <br /><br />You just throw money at it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-39163326690146486042012-06-29T11:26:50.815-04:002012-06-29T11:26:50.815-04:00No country gives all their students the PISA test,...No country gives all their students the PISA test, so South Korea is no exception.<br /><br />What they do, though, is test their poor students as well as their richer students.<br /><br />The people who give the PISA test (OECD) have specifically mentioned a few countries as "exceptions" to the "poor=disadvantaged" rule that they typically promote.<br /><br />And trust me, the OECD is definitely one of the groups that constantly beats the poverty drum.<br /><br />But even they cannot deny the obvious exceptions.<br /><br />They refer to these exceptions as "RESILIENT".<br /><br />And you can google what they say about them.<br /><br />They also have a document on the subject since they can't deny that it happens:<br /><br />"Against the Odds: Disadvantaged Students Who Succeed in School"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4020455191286536580.post-15067378518506053062012-06-28T21:03:43.893-04:002012-06-28T21:03:43.893-04:00Correlation does not automatically mean cause &...Correlation does not automatically mean cause & effect. Perhaps "poor" people aren't as skilled or capable, therefore make money. However not all "poor" have less skills and those "poor" are more successful at school, allowing them to break out of the cycle of poverty.<br />Of course we all know "poor" is a euphemism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com