Reader Maggie Dunne has been urging me to look into a question that's likely on the mind of many teachers and people who care about them. She wonders if the state's pay freeze puts N.C. teachers at a disadvantage compared with people hired from outside the state: "I have been told by friends who are teachers that if someone with 4 years’ experience is a new hire from out of state this year, they are being paid for their experience. So then you have 2 teachers with the same training and the same experience and in the same field getting entirely different pay."
Not true, says the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools human resources staff.
The state pay scale is based on experience and credentials. During good times, teachers generally get a raise for adding a year of experience. But starting in 2009-10, legislators said there wasn't enough money for those raises.
The concern Dunne raises assumes that a N.C. teacher who had five years of experience in 2008-09 remains classified as a five-year teacher, even though he or she now has eight years' experience, while an outsider with the same experience hired this year would be classified as an eight-year teacher. But CMS says both would be classified as eight-year teachers -- at a scale that has been adjusted downward so that pay level now matches what five-year teachers were making before the freeze.
The good news for teachers, then, is that those who stay put aren't being paid less than new arrivals. The bad news is that their pay is unlikely to jump dramatically when the economy recovers. Instead, it's a good bet that lawmakers will start nudging the current scale up in small increments when money is available.
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32 comments:
Scale is going up starting next year.
Here's an idea.
Why don't we have a lottery. Call it the North Carolina Education Lotery, where proceeds go to fund education programs and supplement teacher salaries.
Wiley,
My chuckle for the day.
I SEE SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN THIS STORY
The out-of-state teacher is willing to work based on the table. That pretty much sets the high-end of the pay scale. How much lower pay would the new teacher accept? No one knows!
I’m not advocating paying good teachers less. I just pointing out that tenure eliminates price discovery. This is bad for teachers. Not now, when the economy is poor, but later when school systems have to begin competing with businesses for the best skills.
One day a whole lot more folks are going to wake-up and realize the hidden benefits to teachers of pay-for-performance. Those teachers willing to accept a lower pay might well be the less confident and less qualified, while those only willing to accept the high end or above will likely be the best.
I want good or better teachers in every classroom. Tenure and credentials without a record of performance doesn’t cut it.
Bolyn McClung
Pineville
You can get every top teacher in the United States, stick them in CMS schools and I'll bet they won't do much better than the teachers we currently have.
Pay for performance as the main criteria to compensate teachers will not work. I can have the biggest, baddest, highest horsepower engine in my car, but without the proper tuneup and fuel, it won't run.
Until the culture and mindset of public education from parents, polticians and educrats changes, the brightest teachers in the world won't make a bit of difference.
This issue was good to research however I would like to know how we are not talking about the fact that teachers have not seen these increases in years.
CMS had a pay for performance model in effect with the STAR teacher bonus program as well as the ABC Bonuses. These bonuses did not interfer with yearly pay, however they were based on student growth and schoolwide performance. Everyone seemed comfortable with those types of incentives.
Now we have nothing at all.
Wiley,
It is not uncommon for taxpayers to be sold on the false premise that legalized gambling in the form of lotteries will supplement the education budget. Taxpayers are left to assume the proceeds will also benefit education.
However, more often than not the proceeds of so called education lotteries do go into the state education budget line item. However, other funds that would have funded education are then redirected into other pet projects of government officials.
Education lotteries may often supplant education funding though generally do not supplement operating budgets like many of us may have believed.
Didn't Charlotte pull the same bait and switch with traffic camera's? The public was sold on the funds raised benefiting CMS, but it turned out getting the money to CMS was like pulling teeth and took years. Once Charlotte had to pay CMS the proceeds the camera program went away.
CMS is at the mercy of state, county and local officials just as it is at it's own disadvantage with the ability to govern itself justly.
If the traffic camera’s were good to benefit CMS at the programs beginning, why then shut the program down when it came time to pay CMS the proceeds? I am sure there is a spin doctor answer like the adjusted FRL numbers changed need analysis outcomes.
Ummm..Fuzzy?
The post was a tongue in cheek comment.
The Education Lottery was raided by our current Moron in Chief, Governor Bevie Poo.
The legislature could have found the money to pay teachers what they are owed but chose not to.
You get what you vote for.
A lesson in conventions:
plural = Word + S
if the word ends in x, ch, sh, or s, plural = Word + es
possessive = Word + 's
plural possessive = Word + s'
A LESSON IN CONVENTIONS
The democrats will be here next year.
Me
Charlotte
LOL! They're already here!
Anon 8:40
Word + spell check = a lot less typing.
Bolyn,
The best teachers will sacrifice some money to work for the best principals in the best schools. I'd rather be paid a few thousands dollars less a year to work in a great school with supportive parents, a good principal, adequate supplies, a fair amount of autonomy as a respected professional, competent co-workers and so forth. Newsflash, no one goes into the teaching profession for the high pay and prestige. The difference between making a "high" starting salary of $38,000 vs. $35,000 is negligible. Do you teach or have you ever taught? I'm not a fan of educational psychology but there is a psychology of teaching. You clearly don't get it.
Bolyn,
Why do you think teachers at schools like Charlotte Latin, Charlotte Country Day School, Charlotte Christian School, and Providence Day School are willing to be paid LESS than public school teachers? Work environment matters. Pay-for-performance less so when you're hardly getting paid to begin with. Trust me, any teacher not performing up to par at one of the aformentioned schools can count on a short lived career. Parents paying this kind of moo-la have little tolerance for mediocrity. Parents at these schools also expect teachers to have the right credentials. Credentials meaning a minimum of a B.A. from a reputable college.
Bolyn,
If I were 22-years-old with a pile of student debt, I'd probably be willing to take a job at a horrible school with a horrible principal for an extra 5 grand a year - until I could pay off my student loans and apply for a job at a better school (or enroll in law school). Some schools are more desirable to work at than others. Plain and simple truth. Every teacher knows this. Pay-for-performance isn't going to fix the mryiad of problems in public education. MOO-la is not the silver bullet.
Clarification:
Every "horrible" school has great teachers. The problem is they generally don't last without a heck of a lot of support and stability. It's difficult to work in an environment year after year where parents don't acknowlege and appreciate your efforts combined with inconsistent administrative leadership. I think older and more experienced teachers who have worked in a variety of settings most likely perform better under adverse conditions but even they have shorter life-spans at a high-need schools. Dr. Gorman lasted longer than most urban public school superintendents. lf teachers don't feel like they are part of a team providing quality service in a meaninful way, they'll leave.
IN REPLY TO ANON 11:44p
You have correctly stated the mission of PfP. “…a good principal, adequate supplies, a fair amount of autonomy as a respected professional, competent co-workers.” You also mentioned supportive parents – that’s a different discussion but certainly an area that can sink battleships.
Let’s talk about that competent co-worker.
Three years ago I was at the school board meeting when Gorman was being grilled on what then was the first of three years of teacher RIFs. The crowd was packed with teachers. He was asked if those 247 teachers that were to be cut would be the poor performers. When he said “yes” all the teachers around me reacted loudly and in the affirmative. I could see in their eyes they each knew a poor teacher they’d readily throw to the wolves.
That experience was one of many that sold me on finding a better way to build a teaching core. And also finding an administration that would be better at selecting, training and monitoring principals and teachers.
School board member Kaye McGarry pushed hard on how the superintendent could know with so little information which were truly those 247 teachers. She pointed out that student performance wasn’t a part of evaluations. She questioned the cuts would be made based on one hurried observation.
From this came an accelerated version of PfP. Gorman tried to compress a process into three years that should have taken ten. That’s how testing, testing and more testing got its life. Mrs. McGarry made several unsuccessful attempts to slow the process.
What you want, competent co-workers, is what everyone wants for you. But in my mind that is a job for the administration using something like PfP.
PfP is needed to replace Career Status and the one-size-fits-all pay system.
Bolyn McClung
Pineville
PS: your question about if I had ever taught. Not really; just a couple of years part-time as an instructor in offset printing at CPCC. That doesn’t count. Not just because a license wasn’t required and no pressure from administration,- but because every student I ever had was highly motivated and fixed on getting the best grade and the new job it would bring. I had little concept that just down the road at a CMS school that teachers didn’t have that same wonderful relationship with their students.
Bolyn,
Your experience teaching at CPCC is exactly why CMS and the CTE program is such a failure for many students. STEM and many other educational acronyms are admirable goals for many self motivated students in high school. CMS and its current CTE leadership are so wrapped into me too programs that needed real elementary and middle school programs are virtually non-existent. A system can't continue to train students for jobs that don't and will never exist in a service based industry that is imploding. Your textile mill stretch out model of paying teachers is another guarantee that the public school teacher of the future will be short term, short tempered, short sighted, and as highly respected as a politician.
Gentlemen,
It's not that complicated. Teachers teach because they find meaning and purpose through the goals of education. The vast majority of teachers want to perform well. Most teachers don't like working alongside incompetent clowns. Unless public schools are miraculously going to start paying "highly qualified" teachers a six figure starting salary, teachers will continue to choose the profession for reasons that have little to do with earning potential. If you want to drive a $65,000 car and live in a mansion on Lake Norman while sending your kids to Poo- Poo Day School, than you probably need to consider a different career. I'm tellIng you, most teachers aren't going to perform better for a little more cash. People dont major in art or attend divinity school for the primary purpose of making big bucks. Teachers need to make enough money to live on and send their own children to college but money isn't the driving force in choosing to work in this profession. It's just not. Now, I don't believe in tenure or career status. How about dumping this practice and focusing limited financial resources that are proven to help teachers perform better in their work environment? Spend the money giving teachers the tools they need to suceed. Research suggests that simply allowing teachers to share what they do best with other teachers improves overall performance and productivity in addition to putting pressure on teachers who might be starting to slack off due to burnout. A good team of teachers with the right administrative support will put pressure on slackers to step up to the plate. It's simply not necessary to design 52 standardized tests in every subject to try and figure out who is and who is not doing their job. This is stupid. Again, it's not that complicated.
Well stated 4:49.
Teacher pay is not the problem. The students are the problem. They're not interested. They expect to be spoon-fed the information they need to pass the class. They don't read, and have no respect for anything. They will complain, loudly, against any affront to their entitlement mentality. They cheat, they copy and paste, they are practiced liars. They work the system, and we pass them along because we need our paycheck. We don't have a lot of wiggle-room in our teacher budgets.
Then the anti-intellectuals graduate and go on to college, where they learn they have no chance of getting a legitimate degree, so they major in financial aid. They don't go to the library unless they need to get on a computer.
No child left behind equals Occupy whatever. They have no skills, other than operating their cell phone. Irony is an undecipherable concept. The educrats have outlawed the dictionary, so "pass" includes all tenses; whether is the same as weather. We have a nation of imbeciles, playing with their touch-screens.
While we're attacking teachers who are the cause of every education woe across America, how about taking a closer look a college education programs that train them? As a lateral-entry art teacher, the state required me to complete critical "core" subjects that every liscenced teacher has to take regardless of their subject area. For example: "Diversity in Education", "Arts in Education", "Educational Psychology", "Issues and Trends in Education", "Cultral Understanding", "Inuit-Centric Education", Afro-Centric Education", "Curriculum Design and Planning So The State Can Mandate a Rigid Script That You Better Not Deviate From Or We'll Dock Your Performance Pay and Whip You With A Thousand Noodles", "Current Educational Jargon and B.S." and, well, I rest my case.
anon 6:44. Yes, all those classes are silly, but you should thank god you achieved licensure. Just consider it paying your union dues. You now have a stable job with health insurance. An art degree isn't very marketable. Take it from me; I didn't get licensed and I teach part-time in a community college. I've been sick for three weeks, and can't afford to go to the doctor, and definitely can't afford the antibiotics.
Don't attack the education programs. That license will allow you to suck at the teat of the taxpayer for the rest of your life.
Bolyn,
We're on the same page regarding teacher selection and training. Almost anyone can major in Education. It's more difficult to major in music and dance. An art student has to demonstrate some level of talent, professional training, proficiency and commitment to the art form before a college program will accept them. Up until recently, the criteria to be accepted into an Education major program was minimal at best. This is changing. Many colleges now require a minimum SAT or ACT score plus a more rigorous high school transcript in order to be accepted into their Education programs. I still have issues with some of the various state "core" requirements supposedly necessary to train competent teachers. "Cultural Understanding and Diversity in Education"? "I'm OK, You're OK"? Give me a break.
6:02 shouldn't be teaching. 6:02 really shouldn't be teaching.
7:30. I feel your pain. I taught undergraduate classes as a college senior, graduate TA and adjunct assistant professor at 4 four-year universities before receiving state lateral-entry licensure because I wanted stable health insurance and a retirement plan. I had to pass a "cultural understanding" course and learn about Pavlovian salivating dogs in Educational Psych. in order to be deemed qualified to teach high school students my area of fine art expertise. Ironically, one of the universities I taught for was 95% black. I was an affirmative action hire.
Guess what the most highly selective college is in the nation?
Hint: Not Harvard
Answer: (spelled backwards)
drailluJ
Julliard and many other performing arts schools have the benefit of auditions proving the applicants are unworthy.
Let's reword the pay-for-performance test question. Shall we?
1. Name the most highly selective college in the U.S.
Hint: Not Yale
Answer: (spelled upside down as best as I can on my smarty-pants phone).
£nll!¥]p
10:30
I don't know about little Joey being "unworthy" to be a musical theatre major in college but perhaps little Joey is simply more suited for a different day job like aeronautical engineering. You must have missed the state mandated self-esteem course.
7:30
"teat"?! You must have confused this blog with the RURAL education blog. There are no 4-H Club members here.
Moo
Bolyn, We're on the same page regarding teacher selection and training. Almost anyone can major in Education. It's more difficult to major in music and dance. An art student has to demonstrate some level of talent, professional training, proficiency and commitment to the art form before a college program will accept them. Up until recently, the criteria to be accepted into an Education major program was minimal at best. This is changing. Many colleges now require a minimum SAT or ACT score plus a more rigorous high school transcript in order to be accepted into their Education programs. I still have issues with some of the various state "core" requirements supposedly necessary to train competent teachers. "Cultural Understanding and Diversity in Education"? "I'm OK, You're OK"? Give me a break. 6:02 shouldn't be teaching. 6:02 really shouldn't be teaching.
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